How to Pick Your Lane as a Fractional Executive with Bruce Roles

How to Pick Your Lane as a Fractional Executive with Bruce Roles

Brett: Welcome back to the Corporate Escapee Podcast. I'm your host, Brett Trainor. Before I get today's episode, I wanna remind you that we have launched the Corporate Escapee Collective. It's a free online community for fellow escapees and for you that are out there on the fence, thinking about or wanting to leave corporate, but just haven't figured out how to do it yet.

You don't have to go through the journey alone. So if you're interested in joining or know someone who enjoy it, please connect with me via LinkedIn or send me an email. BT Brett I'd love to hear from you. Bruce, when I tell folks that if someone is paying you to do a job, you have the skills and experience to become a consultant or a fractional or a contract type of employee, and you today are a perfect example of this.

Bruce Rolls joins the show today. Bruce is a fractional. COO of manufacturing and we'll get into that in who he works with in a moment. Uh, spent over two decades in corporate and small and mid-sized manufacturing businesses before making the escape. He is also an e o s integrator,

and I think that was about it.

Bruce, welcome to the podcast. Did

I miss anything?

Bruce: No, I think you, I think you covered it.

Brett: Awesome. Well, it's, I'm glad to have you here. Cause I, I do think when people think well, fractional or a contract, it's gotta be a chief marketing officer or a designer and no, you're, you're showing that operations in manufacturing is a, um, is a, is a fractional role. So why don't you, um, share with the audience a little bit about, you know, what you're doing today and the types of companies

that you work.

Bruce: yeah. Thanks for having. Me here. Um, I, uh, I work with, uh, primarily small, uh, small manufacturing companies that are, um, on a growth path and, arguably are struggling with that because things are changing, uh, rapidly for them. And the, and the challenge is to, is to keep up with that as they go.

And I do that as part of either their leadership. Uh, or an extension of the leadership team. Sometimes there's somebody in that seat and it's just a bit overwhelming and they need, you know, need some extra help with that.

Brett: And how, um, if you don't mind, let's go back to your journey a little bit. Cause you spent, uh, did I get that right? A couple of decades, you know, onsite

or within companies running, you know, operations for manufacturing


Bruce: a couple of decade, decades would be, would be a compliment. I think it, it was much longer than, much longer than, Than that. And, and my journey had me at both large corporations, you know, those that are 10,000, you know, thousands of people and more, and, and the mid-size companies as well as a, uh, few different ones that were the, the small manufacturing companies.

And I've just migrated to those, those smaller manufacturing companies just because of the entrepreneurism that's alive and well there. And that, that entrepreneurial spirit and the ability to impact a lot of things. Uh, very quickly the ability to turn on a dime and keep going. And as I've launched myself into this, into this arena, that's, that's where the, I don't know, that's where the passion is.

That's where the fun is, uh, because there's just so much going on there.

Brett: you know, every one of our stories is a little bit different. So how did you get to the point, you know, that, hey, I'm in, I'm on the corporate side of this. I think did you think, Hey, there's a business on the contract side. What was kind of that, that tipping point that moved you from corporate

into what you're doing today?

Bruce: it's interesting, um, I, I think with, uh, a lot of the people that are frustrated with the whole. Uh, corporate life, uh, pathway that I was just really tired of it, and I mean, I couldn't wait to be done and I, I'd read an article at one point, this goes back a few years, and it just talked about.

Senior level, uh, people and companies stepping out on their own and understanding the ability to really focus on what they're most interested in, uh, control their calendar and, and even control their income. And I was like, wow, that's very intriguing. I wonder how somebody does that. And then, you know, somebody needs you back at a meeting and the way you go and you forget about it.

And then I ended up in this space, um, three years ago or, or about three years. Where, where, well, what's next? It, it was the opportunity to keep, you know, find another, uh, W2 position or, or explore other things. And in the, in the, in the process of that, I went to a, a networking meeting of, of people in transition, and I met somebody who said, Yeah, I work in the fractional workspace and I was like, well, what is that?

Got out of that meeting, looked that up and found out, wait a minute, this is what I was reading about years ago. They just didn't call it fractional. And that intrigued me. So I was sort of interested a long time ago, forgot about it, and all of a sudden it's in front of me again. And as I, as I investigated and understood what it took to, to move in that direct.

It just became more and more, uh, intriguing. Exciting, and like, why not? And the way I went.

Brett: Interesting. Yeah. Cause I think it kind of had similar past, I was in consulting and like, what's next? Right? I, and I had not heard of fractional at that point either. Cause I was doing consulting like, well I can do this on my own. Right. I'm. Can source deals and you know, do the delivery work and that type of thing.

So the fractional came up later and yeah, there's like this whole, um, I don't, maybe a movement or communities that are sitting kind, I would say below the surface of folks that, that have been doing this. I mean, some people have been doing at least for, for 10 years. But, you know, back back to your, your journey, and I know a lot of people.

That don't pull the trigger and jump or escape from, from corporate cuz they don't know if they, they're gonna find the work, right? Or there's the opportunity and is anybody gonna pay them? And those types of things. So. So how did you, once you decide, hey, this is intriguing, I think I can do this, what, you know, kind of what was those action

plans that you took, um, and was the plan ending up the way you thought it was,

you know, when you were starting this?

Bruce: Well, it, there's a couple of things. You know, you're,

you kind

of, there's a phrase in e os about letting go of the vine. And I think I was struggling with that a little bit because it was, yeah, I knew where I, it looked like where I wanted to go and yet I was still hanging on to that W two world and people said, well, you know, how can I help you?

And I would say, well, I'm looking for this in the W2 world. I could do some interim. You know, at a, at a, at a senior level, or I could go do this independent, uh, fractional thing. And a and I, I, I networked with a guy once that was in consulting and he said, you've got to narrow that down. You're just confusing anybo, everybody.

Uh, they don't know how to help you because you're spread out so far, far, uh, in, in terms of the things that you, uh, That you can do. And he said you can't ride two horses at once and so you gotta plan a flag. And, and he told me, based on the conversation we had that he said, I would tell you to plan it in that independence space and go in that direction.

And when I tightened that message up, then stuff started to come together and I got my Lll C and and people started to be able to help. As I was getting things going and I would have conversations with my b with my daughter, I'd said, you know, God, I think if I could just get one client, I'll be okay. And I finally got that.

And today I sometimes I pinch myself and go, is this really all happening in in, in the great ways that it is? And she'll just remind me. She goes, dad, you. Just get me one. And in a, in, you know, in a way, in a way, we went, so, you know, I had to let go of that W2 world. I wasn't so worried about not being able to find a client.

It was more about when will I find a client? I, I guess I had enough self-confidence in that, but when I finally let go and said, no, I'm going this direction, then, then things started to come together and people really came. Out of the woodwork, so to speak, with, with help sometimes unsolicited help and, and it just helped propel me in, in this direction.

Brett: No, I think that's, that's super interesting and you some really good points there because I, you know, talk with folks all the time thinking about it or have started and right, they, I can do all these things, I can do this, I can do that, I can do this. And to your point, what did you say, don't ride two horses at once or you can't ride two horses.

And I mean, that's probably the, one of the biggest pieces of advice I give to folks is, is pick a path first. You can always change the path later. But it, it's so true that when you're networking with folks, They'll remember talking to you, right? But they won't remember what is that one thing you do that, you know, a month from now they're like, oh man, I've met Bruce.

Oh, he's, oh yeah, he's a, a fractional does X, Y, and Z. But if you would've said, well, I'm looking for the w2, or I can do fractional or interim, probably would've, it just would've all blurred together and it wouldn't have stood out. So I think that's, again, one of the big pieces of advice I give to folks.

Pick a path, pick a lane, pick an offering, um,

get the momentum and then kind of figure out where you,

where you want to go after that, right?

Bruce: And it was almost, it was worse than that. Not only picking that lane of those that you just identified, but then you start to talking about the world that are work in of operations and that is such a vast, vast area. And, and I know others in other disciplines have multiple lanes within their discipline.

Then you want to, next thing you want to do is you want to tell everything buddy, about everything that you can do within that. And, and so you couple on the, the w2, the interim, the fractional, and then you go, well, and then I can do all these things. People just get a headache, you know, they quit listening and you gotta, so you gotta tailor both down, pick the one lane and then narrow the messaging down in terms of what you're doing that lane.

And now people can start to remember that to your point. And then can start, can start helping you move, move forward.

Brett: Yeah, no.

Bruce: couple of things that have to happen there.

Brett: I think you're, you're absolutely right. And that was one of the thing through my journey I figured out too, was, and again, it's still evolving, but I think it, it keeps getting tighter. Right. And, you know, I like to work with, you know, CEOs of two to, you know, 10 to 20 million, I call it two to 20 million.

You know, working with them to, on their, their. Their touchpoints in growth, right? It, it's not, so it's just not sales, it's just not marketing, but kind of make it clear that this is an area and how I'm a little bit different where, and then that can get into that. I've got different programs for different budgets.

Right. So it could be a fractional or it could be just a, a planning or strategy type of session. So I, so I don't confuse people. The, the offerings anymore, it's, Hey, here's the work that I do, here's the types of companies that that fit well with, you know, the work I do. And that's actually helped quite a bit.

Um, cuz to your point, a lot of it, if you don't get it tight, uh, is the noise. And so I think maybe the one piece of advice coming off of that is find something that is a good lead in, right. That you know is a core problem that you're really good at fixing. That once you get in though, that it could expand into to other areas.


Bruce: I tell people, I don't even use the term


anymore. It just, there's, you got people that. Don't know or aren't quite sure what it is. You got people that think they know what it is and they're wrong, and then you got people that actually do know what it is. And so sometimes that you put that word out there and all of a sudden you're tied up in another conversation that you didn't even wanna have.

And it's a, it, it's almost a debate about what that is. So, to your point, if I'm tracking with you correctly, I, I just talk about what I can. And, you know, let others put the labels on it in, in regards to, in regards to what it is. And then the target audience becomes the same as what you're talking about.

Uh, although I'll expand it to the two, to probably 30 or or 40 million in, in revenue.

Brett: Yeah,

Bruce: yeah, I try to get away from the titles and the labels and talk about the services, the things I can.

Um, that I can do to help 'em. And once you've got that one-on-one conversation with that potential client, it's easy to wander around in that realm of, in my case, what operations is about and where do they.

Where do they really need the help at? So you, you take all that, and if I circle back real quick to this, letting go of the vine, if you, once you decide, the other thing you gotta get out of your head, I think is I'm gonna go try this. There's no trying you, you've gotta go after it. Like this is, this is it.

There's no other option. All my energy is going into this. Because if you go in with that try and that tentative. Yeah, good luck. I don't think the chances of success are, are, are in your favor.

Brett: Really good advice, right? Because even you contest it and you, again, maybe the bigger thing is, hey, I can give this two months or three months or six months, right? This is to go, but yeah, you gotta go all in. Yet, yet you do. Now I, I get, if you got a side project or you're doing some consulting work on the side with some folks, but that's still different.

I think that can give you the, the confidence. Right. That, Hey, yeah, my skills are needed out there. And by the way, your skills, if you're listening to us, your skills are needed out there. And, but it, it is a good point. You just can't half-ass it. Right. Moving into, into this and hope to get the, the results that you want.

But interestingly what I've found on the, on our side, right?

The people side of this is, There's a bunch of groups. I think you and I both know John Arms and that, that fractional, uh, group. There's also, you know, subgroups for consultants, solo consultants. I'm now getting involved with small service businesses, like one or two people. So, so I think your, your point, Bruce, is, is again well taken that don't, don't have to put it in a box.

Um, you may find where your sweet spot is. You may like one type of

work better than the other. But don't, Yeah, What is that. That old saying, complexity

kills deals. Keep it simple.

Bruce: Yeah, that. I think that is everything you just said is.

is so true. Leave, leave the labels out of it cuz people, people have different definitions of different things and if you can leave that out of there and just talk about what are, when you got that potential client in front of you and what, what do they think their problems are and are those things.

That you can, that you think you can, that you can solve and work with them on. And sometimes you even gotta peel that onion back a little bit because I have run into this where the potential client thinks they know what their problems are and they don't. That what they, what they, um, are pointing to are the symptoms of their real problems.

So sometimes you gotta dig a little bit and then, and then you can figure out, now is that something that fits me? Or not, and in, in the type of engagement they need. Is that something I want to do or not? I mean, that's part of being in this lane, is you get to decide what you're gonna work on and, and, and what you're not gonna work on.

So if you leave the lanes open and don't worry about the titles of that with them, uh, your conversation gets to the real issue. Very quickly. Um, there's, I see too much of people being lumped in the fractional just because they're independence. All of a sudden everybody's a fractional. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no.

That's not the way, that's not the way that works. And all you're doing is, is helping confuse, um, some people, so,

Brett: . But again, I think the more we can get people to think about it, both business and ourselves as hey, this is the, the problems that we solve are the skills that we have, and there's multiple ways that we can plug into organizations to, to help them with that.

So I think keeping the flexibility, but to your point, keeping it on what you wanna

do. I mean, that was the whole point of this, right, is leaving, is you get to choose, pick and choose who you work with and the, the type of

work you're.

Most of the folks that have, you know, left corporate are definitely more in the abundance mindset versus the scarcity, right?

That, you know, we don't need, I don't know how many clients you can take on at a time, like some of the marketing folks can do up to five. You know, I, I like my sweet spot around two and maybe some project work in there. Cause some of the other things I've got going on. But, you know, I think we don't need a thousand customers in order to kind of hit the goals and, you know, the balance that we're looking for.

So I think that's the other thing people don't appreciate is it's not you against, I rarely, even if we're,

there's three, you know, people doing kind of the same thing. There's, there's room for everybody

out here in this space for.

Bruce: There, there is, it's a good point about the,

the number of clients, because I learned the hard way. I, I, there's not many of us in this space in the operations arena I've come to find. And so when you're looking at other people that are working independently, you start looking at fi, finance people and, and marketing folks.

And like you said, They tend to carry more clients because of the kinds of engagements that they have and what they're being brought in to do. I got the three and I thought I was gonna die, and I was like, why did, why am I doing this? And, and, uh, when I noticed the things that were on my want to-do list personally had shifted over into the, I have to do them because the calendar was so full.

That was my day of reckon. And then I started to back off and I figured that what I've figured out is, for me, it's one and maybe two clients, depending on what that number one client actually needs. And then we'll see what's left over and if there's enough to put into, in the effort into an another company.

Cuz I think the difference in operations is, I, I, the phrase I use is the water's always on. Things are always happening, things are always changing. The shop floor, the production floor is a very dynamic place, and sometimes it, especially in smaller companies, it doesn't take much of a speed bump to, to change directions.

And if you're just not engaged frequently enough with them, you can miss that. And now, now you're out of sync with, uh, with the, the issues that are going on. At least that's what I, I found in the, in the, in, in the space that I'm in. So, You gotta figure out what you're doing, what are the services you're providing?

How are you engaging? And what is the discipline that you're in to figure out what that, what that right number is. But it, the, the, the, the, the positive thing for me is, yeah, it's one to two. So I don't need like a whole pipeline of potential clients to where am I gonna get the next one? That, that, uh, I can see fairly far out on the horizon to know when I'm gonna need to, you know, start thinking about adding another client to the.

Brett: Yeah, I think that that's a, such a good point. You know, the other interesting thing for me during this, this journey as well has been, um, yes, money's definitely important, right? We gotta pay the bills and drive it. But it's, you know, you kind of touched on it there, man, I, I don't have the time for three. I don't wanna do three.

So part of what we're building is, Um, when I started thinking about this, I thought it was just an alternative to work, but it's becoming more of a, I don't wanna say it's a lifestyle, but more of a, you know, a li Yeah, I guess it is a life choice, I guess, right? Because we're starting to blend the work in with the, what we wanna do outside of the work, and it gives us more freedom to do that.

But part of it is you kind of have to decide, or. You know, what you wanna do with it. Um, I didn't really ask you a question there other than, you know, maybe for you as you

started this journey, um, you know, are you finding that balance or better

balance than when you had

that in, in corporate?

Bruce: Absolutely. Aside from that learning curve I just described, , it is that blend that's coming together of, I control my calendar. I can, I control my, my income, uh, to a, to a fair extent. And I control the work that I'm doing. It's not, you know, I took, it's not the, I took this job at this company and now I'm, now I'm required to do anything that they want to put on my desk sort of a thing.

I get to this, no, I don't want to do this kind of work. And, and or I do wanna do this. And, and so it's the blend of those. How much of that work do you want to do? Because how much personal time do you want to have to do other things? And then if, if you're choosing the, the right kind of of work to engage in, you can even choose when you're gonna do that work.

It doesn't have to be, you know, the, the eight to five sort of a of a of a thing. You could decide you wanna do something else during the day because of the work that you're doing with a given. And work on that in the evenings if you want. So I like your life choice phrase because it's truly the blend of those three things that let you choose.

Choose the path you're going, you're gonna go down.

Brett: Yeah, and it's, it's, it's funny, I've shared this story a couple times, but you know, my wife looking back a couple, a couple years ago, she's like, oh man, what was the matter with you when I was still in corporate and everything? Like I said, it was a good job, family, everybody was doing well, but I think it was just everything was.

Fine. And I just, for me, didn't have, you know, you mentioned earlier in the podcast, what's next? Right? What am I working towards? I don't wanna just go through the motions of this and, you know, moving into this, this world, it just opened, opened up and I thought maybe I'd be alone thinking that. But I think we're all, I, that's why I think this, this is not just.

Um, a fad. I think this is the, the future man. I don't think we were meant to be in offices, you know, eight to five and I don't know, some of my days were a hell of a lot longer than that, you know, every day of the week and then fight the commute. It just, it just doesn't make sense. So, um, I think it more and more people discover, and I guess, and probably more the freedom and the

flexibility to, to be able to do this.

I just, I don't think it's gonna go back. Um,

I'd be shocked if it.

Bruce: Yeah, I think, I think it becomes, um, it's a, it's a permanent viable lane, probably in a bigger way than it's ever been before. But the, the thing we. We gotta keep in mind, just like in other things, this kind of a path isn't for everybody. And, um, I, I run into enough people that are sort of on the soapbox of, come on, come all this is the, this is the new way to the promised land.

And, you sort of gotta be wired for this. There's gotta be some things in you. that let you succeed in this avenue. Just like if you were gonna be a plumber that would let you succeed in that avenue, or you're gonna be a doctor and let you succeed in that avenue. You gotta have, there's some things, I don't wanna just say skillset, but a little bit about the way you're wired in order to succeed here.

Um, you said earlier it's like, you know, we need, we need some people in those other positions. Yeah. They're gonna be the full-time, corporate people or full-time, whatever they do. and we, we need them as well. Um, this is just another path, but it's not necessarily for every anyone, and you've gotta make.

You gotta make those assessments somewhat internally and, and maybe in, in some conversation if you're not sure what some sort of a personal coach or career coach or something. I, I, I think, um, to figure out if this is the avenue for you. I mean, I even met a guy in a networking meeting here a couple of weeks ago and he was trying to decide if this, if this kind of a path was for him, and he, and he asked me, uh, he goes, what's your biggest regret?

That was his first question for me. And I'm like, yeah, that's somebody I think who's looking for a way to convince him that this path isn't for him. And when everybody's saying, Hey, this is the path, I think you just gotta decide what do you wanna do? Where's your passion at? What do you like to. Um, and, and not look for the thing that says, aha.

There it is. That's why I, that's why this isn't a good, a good path. Incidentally, my quest answer to that guy's question was

my biggest regret. I said, I don't even have a regret. He didn't know how to, he didn't know what to follow up with after that.

Brett: Yeah, that's good. You know what I, I would tell folks too is that I didn't start it earlier, but I also don't think my time was ready earlier, if that makes sense. Um, you know, I, it's such a good point cause I do tell people, look, if you love your, your your nine to five job and you get the satisfaction and you've got your good life balance and everything works for you, then, then perfect.

You know, stay at it. Then this isn't free because that, as I tell people, I'm not out to convince. Right. That this, I'm just showing you what's possible. This is what's out here, you know, and maybe what's interest, you mentioned it's not necessarily a skillset, which I agree with. Um, maybe mindset and, cause I think when in the old days you, if you're an entrepreneur, it has to be a risk taker and, you know, damned to be everything else that I'm gonna succeed at all costs or, Nope, you, you're nine to five, you take your paycheck, get your two weeks vacation, you know, go home and maybe now you got some.

Flexibility built into it. But I think that's where this whole new middle section is. And I also think, you know, the, the beauty of it is you can carve it and make it as flexible or risk averse as you want it to be. Right. Is we're starting to learn these different things, but I think it, you know, it's such a good point that it, that it isn't for everybody.

Um, I think again, you have to make that choice. And you know, that's kind of what I looked at was, you know, is the balance. What do I want? Right? I'm kind of thinking this is, you know, there was a book called, I think the second half, right? And so I'm not planning on retiring. I just, I can't sit around. And so I needed to figure out what I wanted to do next.

Um, and then once discovered, meaning like, holy shit, this. I like getting up in the morning. I like thinking about what work, what am I gonna do? What is this client project? It just, it just changed the, the mindset. So I, I think you're right. And it'd be interesting some point to figure out, you know, what are those characteristics, right, or skill sets that you need in order to do it.

Bruce: Well, and I, I, I spend a, a, a fair amount of my free time networking with other folks, and a lot of those, at least recently, have seemed to be people that are trying to, you know, decide about this lane. And, I just, I'm just black and white on it and, and pretty honest about. And I think I end up leaving them with some clear things to think about as opposed to just, well, do I wanna do this or have a full-time job?

It, it, I, you know, I kind of dig a little deeper and, and, you know, I never decide for them if they're the right person or not. They gotta decide that. But I try to get 'em take a hard look at a few different things to see if this is. Really the thing that they, that they want to do. Um, the other thing I, I, I try to talk to them about is, uh, I, I get asked frequently, where are you finding your clients?

How do you go find your clients? And I, I said, you know, My focus is on helping other people in any way, shape, form that I can. Sometimes it's getting in their face a little bit about some things that they're hemming and haun about. Sometimes it's just giving them some, some straight answers, some questions they got, that kind of thing.

And I just focus there. And if I, I believe that if I can help enough people in, in the right ways, that the help that I need in, in this case, clients, somehow that will find me. And that seems to. What's happening is, for the most part, my clients are finding me. I'm not out sort of beating the bushes for them.

Brett: Right. No, we have

Bruce: that's a whole different spin on this whole space because there's so much talk about, yeah, how do I get the clients? How do I get the clients? Where do I find 'em at? What do I gotta do to get 'em? And I'm like, ah, I don't know if that's the right approach.

Brett: I would agree. I mean, I think you gotta be, uh, intentional, I think is the, the word, right? When you're, you're doing it. But I agree with you, man. I think I'm all in on the, the karma train that says, Hey, the more people we help, the more it's gonna come back to you. And the more people that know about what you're doing and this community.

The broader community, not just fractionals, I think is very much like looking to help each other. And one of the things that we, we talked about earlier is, right, I, I think there's 14 different revenue paths. I had Mike Waller on who's, you know, helps.

Corporate escapees, figure out if franchises then, right? They kind of got a business that's built, it's got some processes built in. You don't have to do it. And I, I, I think it just all goes back to before you do anything, is what, is what do you want? What do you want? Right. You know, what, what is gonna make you happy with either that's personal in your life or family relationships.

if you would've asked me this be four years ago, I'm like, ah, that's silly man. I just, we'll find good work, something I'm happy about. But now it really is about that balance. And you know, I put people and really challenge them to think about what do you want? And it's not a, it's not a five minute think, right?

It's, you need to go around and think about what you know that is. And so I think it's a perfect tie back to what you're saying that hey, it's not for everybody, but if you're in a situation that you just

don't. Mean, explore the options, I think is the, maybe the

what we're both saying in

slightly different ways.

Bruce: Agreed. Agreed.

If you don't have any clear idea about what it is you want, where you're trying to get to, how do you wanna live, those kinds of things, you're gonna struggle on any. About whether it's the right one for you or not, and whether you're happy or not and, and feel fulfilled and all those sorts of things. I

Brett: Right. No, I think you're right cuz in your corporate journey, man, we just go, we go through the progression, we get promoted, or maybe we lose our job and we find the next job and you know, it just, it just, it was way too, too linear. So, anyway. Well, Bruce, again, I wanna be super respectful of your, I really, really appreciate you taking time and sharing your story because it is, it's unique and there's options and I love your honesty.

You know, the pros, cons, hey.

But, um, if folks out there are listening to this and want to connect with you, what is the best way for


to, to do so?

Bruce: I'm on LinkedIn all the time, and that's probably the easiest. Easiest path to find me is just look me up on there. I'll have a conversation with virtually anybody, uh, that wants to do. So I'm always, I'm always interested in finding out what other folks are up to and what they're doing, and what they're thinking as well.


Brett: Yeah, as they say, curiosity's a superpower. So, uh, and I think you people that listen to this episode, you know that you will give them honest advice or that your honest opinion. So definitely reach out to 'em if you have questions, because I think the more of these. The dialogues we have the better off we're gonna be.

So, so Bruce, thanks again for, for joining us and uh, have a great rest of your day and we'll, we'll catch up with you in the not too distant


Bruce: Sounds good. Thanks. for having me.